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PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold... 

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:47 am 
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Id suggest this thread be closed.

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:52 am 
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wgaf whos idea it was, if you're not going to patent the idea then expect someone to jump on the idea.

especially when we're talking about a manifold spacer.. ffs its a laser cut piece of plastic.

if it was a cure for cancer i'd understand but this is a joke.

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:04 pm 
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frankieh wrote:
Why is it a novel idea??? These spacers have been available for many non i6 motors for ages....

why is either of you making one for the 16 anything other than copying someone else's idea and adapting it for a different motor (the 16 in this case).


Your right "novel" is a to strong of a word. "new" would be more appropriate for the I6 engine, as the concept has been around for ages. Wrong choice of words.

Unfortunately there is a lot of "me too" in the aftermarket performance industry which is we why we protect our products where we can and as best we can. I mean what would you do in our position?
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Hi again. It's me.

This is an original idea from me, as explained. During the research of this idea I found MACE making a thing that isolated the top from the bottom. At this point in time MACE did not answer emails about why they were doing it this way (ask FAST XR, he'll confirm) and then once I had product development all sorted and had cut trial products (read this thread - page 2 or 3 starts with "someone has stolen your idea Fiend...")


Anyway, what the hell.


A) I don't see why this thread should be stopped. I started it well before MACE released their product onto the market, and they only bought their's out once they saw what I was doing on this thread.
B) If you want a group buy - fine. Am willing to work out prices for such. Am damn sure that if I had finances for more material and more machine cutting time that the price would drop considerably.
C) As you know Frankieh I am a complete car novice and I (forgive my backwards nature here) DID NOT KNOW THAT THESE THINGS EXISTED AT ALL UNTIL I STARTED RESEARCHING WHAT TO DO ABOUT HEAT SOAK FROM HEAD TO MANIFOLD.
Beat that - I honestly didn't have a bloody clue that other motors had them. I had no idea that it was an old concept. Within an hour or two of researching I found it was an old concept. After a week of on and off research I found NOTHING available for the I6 that I own so I designed my own.
D) MACE should just start his own thread and stop using words like "exclusive" in his advertising.
E) My design is better (or, if not better, definately different) than MACES. Most of the reasons why are detailed on this thread. They'll hate me for bringing it up - but 8mm thick means you can still (just) use your original mounting bolts - would suggest using longer, but I've managed with originals myself. As you are moving the BBM 5 or 6mm away from the rocker cover you have to adjust the way your throttle and cruise cables connect. Not hard at only 5mm difference! Also, all my ports are larger and will not impeed air flow of your ported XR6 tickford (for example).
F) Once someone on here buys one, I think you'll be a little surprised at how different it is and you may actually think it's worth the asking price of $126.66 NZ inclusive of post...! Purely for the novelty value alone... Enough said (and no pictures forthcoming, sorry... I have my reasons!)



Thanks for the support OSBORNE - EFFALCON = it's not really a plastic (well, it is, but... Well, you know, it isn't...) and it's cut with a water jet, not laser. So there.

Yawn.


Thank f**k that people without a clue exist. Leave them alone and watch them do s**t like split the atom.

Hey - an EF on nuclear, now you got me thinking :roll:
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:52 pm 
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Your not accurate in saying that it was your original idea. It was designed and manufactured more then 14 months (again based on the date when the design was registered) ago and was tested by these companies around the middle of last year.

http://www.towler.com.au/homepage.html

http://www.jimmockmotorsport.com/

Your more then welcome to contact either Bill, or Brendan from either of the companies respectively, about the testing they did on these products.

Plus we were also first to market as well, with an actual tangible product, and not a concept...

So I don't understand how you can still say it's your original idea, when all the evidence is there to suggest that it wasn't.
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:38 pm 
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For f**k, this winging from you lot at Mace is getting boring... Even to me... And I'm about 50% of the people here who are in the least bit interested!

It is MY ORIGINAL IDEA due to me entirely not knowing about any others (and you actually ignoring requests to find out if you made one.,..) I am quite entitled to say "an original idea from Fiend", as it is - I did not copy it from anybody. Try reading what has been said previously.

If you can't read, go find a lawyer who can and see if he thinks court action is in order. Otherwise, go start your own thread called "MACE IS THE BEST, EVEN THO WE IGNORE EMAILS FROM POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS" or some crap.

Cheers, now kindly desist.

Last edited by fiend on Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:26 pm 
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That's a fairly mature response :shock:
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:33 pm 
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I've done all my mature stuff previously. Am simply fresh out of mature. There's no mature left to be found here. Move along please.

It's simple really. If someone wants one of these things, they can http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listin ... ber=120931 or PM me here. If they want one of yours, then simply go to EBAY and do a search for MACE ENGINEERING (which will display a whole heap of other products well worth a look also.)

I repeat for the last time - this product of mine was designed purely as nothing was available. There is now something available. Yay, good for us.

Bored bored bored bored bored bored.

Last edited by fiend on Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:35 pm 
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This thread is going to be locked shortly if these comments continue.

fiend - I suggest you take your issues with MACE to PM of offline.

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:45 pm 
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fiend wrote:
C) As you know Frankieh I am a complete car novice and I (forgive my backwards nature here) DID NOT KNOW THAT THESE THINGS EXISTED AT ALL UNTIL I STARTED RESEARCHING WHAT TO DO ABOUT HEAT SOAK FROM HEAD TO MANIFOLD.
Beat that - I honestly didn't have a bloody clue that other motors had them. I had no idea that it was an old concept. Within an hour or two of researching I found it was an old concept. After a week of on and off research I found NOTHING available for the I6 that I own so I designed my own.


Hey Mr Fiend,
My comment was not directed to you at all but rather to ango82 with regard to his suggestion that their product was "novel" when it's really just porting a well known years old idea to a different motor.

For what it's worth, I put two normal gaskets on the Xflow motors intake manifold in one of my old XC panel vans years and years ago for the same reason... it's definitely not a new idea.. but kudos to you for coming up with it without knowing of it's prior existence.


I'm planning to look into this a good deal more when I get the supercharged EL motor running... This and the 69mm Throttle body as well... The charged motors have the best ability to make use of them... expecially well intercooled ones. (without intercooler probably has no effect as the air will probably alraedy be hotter than the intake manifold from the turbo/supercharger.)
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:00 pm 
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Damn right about that intercooler thing... Other than your charged air may actually start melting the rough casting marks off the internals of the BBM (no, not for real, but you'd be getting super fried air once you've had motor running for half an hour)...

Am not going to share the actual temperatures of what the BBM was getting to on my car (honestly, I would, but all you mechanic types would start going "what the hell - how does your car even manage 100km/h, never mind 0-100 in under 8 seconds....":)

You're also on the money with putting the original Ford gaskets in duplicate. I was surprised how much heat transfer they stopped. Aftermarket ones that I've tested don't do anywhere near as good job. Was surprised at the original Ford part stopping the amount of heat it did. To stop the amount of heat the FFFF does you'd need to stick quite a few of them together and risk the whole BBM going through your passenger side shock tower however........

I have found that removing the EF style plastic above rocker cover does give benefit (BA or custom smooth 3" is a lot better...) and am not going to go on about the flow properties of the EL or even AU standard pipes again. They may stop heat soak into the black backerlite plastic stuff, but Yuk.

Okay, I give in - I will share one temp reading with you.
ROCKER COVER UNDER THROTTLE BODY - 79 DEGREES CELCIUS.
See the problems with that?! That definitely ain't rocket science.

Other ones were just as startling... Even taking into consideration the amount of time it took me to pull the various intake parts off and measure the inside of other parts etc etc... Let's say the temperature dropped 5 degrees whilst testing (which it did) and that the various parts were still..... Well... Hot enough to kill most bacteria...


Good to see you back Frankieh. Am damn sure I left a bump in your M90 thread just this afternoon................


dcstraight wrote:
This thread is going to be locked shortly if these comments continue.fiend - I suggest you take your issues with MACE to PM of offline.
Dude, re-read and notice how many times I have asked them to give it up and stop carrying on like spoilt brats about s**t no one cares about other than myself and them (and I am bored of it myself for crissakes)... I invented something. Simple. Now can MACE please take their adverts for their own products elsewhere and stop hijacking this thread. Can you tell them, coz they ain't listening to me.

Last edited by fiend on Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re:
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:19 am 
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tickford_6 wrote:
this is what the difference in runner length does for the power curve.

Dude - I know this is an old message, but this graph is just astounding. You're telling me that if I added 13mm to the intake path that the poor car could bank on loosing 20 or 30 horses?

Image

Maybe your picture needs a explanation as to how long the two intakes actually were etc etc etc. I can't quite make it out - but it looks as if you've gone from 12mm to 25mm? That's a difference of only 13mm and yet you're showing a 20 horsepower loss associated with that. I find that very hard to get my head around. The actual path from throttle body to chamber is a lot longer than that and you've changed the input path by about 1% and you've lost 10% of your power somewhere?

The actual difference in path from throttle body to chamber is only 5mm from standard with my spacer installed and considering the benefit from having cooler alloy for the air to flow through I would suggest the spacer actually provides a more efficient combustion process - which may mean more power in high operating temperatures.

If anyone can replicate the results of your test to the extent of loosing so many horses I'd be amazed. Just how was this tested and by whom?
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:36 pm 
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I find such a large drop of horse from such a tiny change too hard to believe, unless as you said fiend maybe the graph could use explanation.

Oh and Fiend - If it looks like its a good successful product, i'll certainly be buying yours, as your not acting like a douche about the who thought of it first nonsence.

I may have missed it, but have you fitted one to your car yet?

 

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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm 
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Is fitted, yeahp. Results, photos, installation issues etc will be available at a later date and time (maybe Private Message - hahahaahah! ;) )

They cost a lot to make unfortunately. I don't have the equipment required to do a +/- 0.1mm cut through a 8.1mm laminate. I don't have a big supply of material out back. Sorry about that.

Will put together a decent document about all this sometime. It will, no doubt, turn into a chapter of my autobiography entitled "problem child".... (maybe there'll be a few chapters with problem child like titles...)

All good Pimpster, if people buy one I will provide the information if they require it. Would prefer them to do their own testing on temperatures before and after etc etc etc so that I can provide a completely reliable proof of concept in future. Not everyone will be bothered by the differences enough to justify purchase, but if you were looking at getting one that splits the BBM in half I would suggest that this will work a lot better. I cannot guarantee it as I have not installed and tested a BBM splitter.

And yeah, Trickford_6's loosing about 25 horses to a 13mm space increase seems mighty amazing. I ain't seeming to loose a single point of a kilowatt to a 5mm space increase myself.



I know I said I'd keep this sort of info secret(ish) for a little while, but being secret squirrel never was high on my thought process.
:!: Here's another couple of measurements for you to consider;
:mrgreen: Temperature of Head @ injector cylinder two 96 degrees Celsius.
:mrgreen: Water temperature at Radiator Input 91 degrees Celsius.
:mrgreen: Temperature at bottom of BBM cylinder two 65 degrees Celsius.
:mrgreen: Temperature of Butterfly in Throttle Body 51 degrees Celsius.
:mrgreen: Temperature at surface of pod air filter 31 degrees Celsius.
:mrgreen: Ambient 27 Celsius.
:| Starting to see a pattern?

Last edited by fiend on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:07 pm 
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Excellent, i look forward to such a PM.

Thanks Fiend.

 

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