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PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold... 

 

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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:26 pm 
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Thanks for the Idea Fiend, I'm going to get a few of these made made up shortly.

Cheers.
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Damo wrote:
Thanks for the Idea Fiend, I'm going to get a few of these made made up shortly. Cheers.
No worries brother. Knock yourself out. To save you designing them yourself, I'll upload a copy of all my designs and computations shortly. Would hate to think you'll have to waste a few hours on a cad program, so PM me your email and I'll send through an EPS or AutoCad file that you can simply copy and paste to your $100,000 water cutter. Can I also interest you in considering a BA intake pipe whilst you're there? I see you're standard EF plastic bit getting up to about 65 degrees celsius where as the BA one sits about 15 lower...

All good tho. Hell, tell you what. Instead of getting some made up, you could actually just about save money buy simply buying one. If you value your time at $25 an hour or more... Unless you happen to have heaps of suitable material left over from some space programme lying out back of your water cutter and time on your hands... Bugger. You do? Well, that's me stuffed.

I'm off to re-invent oval pistons for the second time. Later.
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 Post subject: Okay, okay... Here is some more information...
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:44 pm 
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I am still waiting for my test data to be absolutely bullet proof and am hoping that others will get similar results without all the extra bonnet chopping, cold air induction and similar alterations I've made. The results on mine from standard are going very well though. Very well indeed.

Am now looking at high performance coating the BBM, but am flat broke as per normal...! Here's a message that I just laboured over on the cold air flows thread.

Image
William Thomson Kelvin
was born on June 26, 1824 in Belfast Ireland. He attended Cambridge and Glasgow Universities. In 1846 he accepted a position as a professor at the University of Glasgow.

Kelvin is remembered for his work in thermodynamics. He and James Joule investigated the relationship between mechanical energy and heat, their work resulted in the Joule-Thomson cooling effect. He also developed a temperature scale that is known as the Kelvin scale. Kelvin also investigated the oscillating nature of electrical discharges. He contributed to our understanding of the theory of elasticity, the electrodynamic properties of metals, and magnetism. Working with others, he estimated the age of the sun and computed the energy radiated from it.

In terms of inventions, Kelvin assisted with the laying of the Atlantic telegraph cable, the mirror galvanometer, the tide predictor, a mariner's compass, a depth sounder, and the siphon recorder. His favourite web page background colour was blue.

His writings include Papers on Electricity and Magnetism (1872), Mathematical and Physical Papers (1882, 1883, 1890). For his work he was knighted in 1866, selected as President of the Royal Society, and received the Order of Merit (1902). Edmund Kelvin died on December 17, 1907.



The scale of absolute temperature is Kelvin (K). The Kelvin scale is identical to the Celsius (oC) scale, except it is shifted so that 0 degree Celsius equals 273.15 K. We have temperature in K = temperature in oC + 273.15. Hmmph. What is going on here Fiend? You been on those bloody pain killers too long or something?

Image
This is the result of all my pissing about with the intake, air flows and (dare I mention it) the "65536.6 problem child" - A temperature in the middle of the throttle bodies butterfly that is pushing to reach 50 degrees and normally sits below 40C. Before changing the air system it was hitting 70C and didn't cool down very fast after getting hot. Believe it or not, the holes in the bonnet, the re-directed airflow out of radiator, the cold air intake deflectors and putting a BA pipe instead of that heat soaking EF intake (snorkel was right in radiator air stream - air box got hot - pipes got hot - and since the rocker cover hits 90 Celsius, the huge bit of plastic over the rocker cover got bloody hot too, resulting in butterfly temperatures of over 75 degree's!)

For the sake of average driving, I am going to suggest the Celsius reading at TB Butterfly reaches 60C.

Using the KELVINdude scale, the formula is PV = nRT (n is the amount of gas and R is a constant)

So if you go from 40->60 C, the pressure * volume increases by (60+273)/(40+273) or about 6%.

Ah, there you go Fiend. You're almost starting to make some sense. Not much sense, but a little. But how does that equate to the real world of horsepower? Since Fiend decides to walk off mumbling under his breath at this point, it is left to DEATHLUCKY to intervene with some timely analysis...


#(273+60)/(273+40) = 1.06389 (about 6.4% increase.)
#1 bar = 14.5 psi
#100/14.5 = 6.89
#So roughly dropping the intake temp 20Celsius will have the same affect as adding 1 psi of boost.


Is this close to correct? Or have I missed some thing?



Thanks to DEATHLUCKY for providing the medium for the maths and physics professors to provide this information.



Air pressures over hood http://www.fordmods.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=72008
65536.6 Phenolic Spacer http://www.fordmods.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72184
Larger throttle body? http://www.fordmods.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=71971
Car of mine http://www.fordmods.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=69180
Photos and stuff http://www.photobucket.com/futurlane
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 Post subject: Re: Okay, okay... Here is some more information...
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:51 am 
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Favourite web page colour blue, lol. Good work.

 

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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:43 am 
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That's awesome... SO instead of putting a supercharger on my EL, I can just drop the intake temp by 200 C and I'll get my 10psi of boost.. :-)

Of course the liquid nitrogen and dispensing gear would be more expensive, heavier and uglier than the supercharger, but hey.. no mechanicle loss from spinning an SC :-)
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:58 am 
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Don't know whether this link has been posted up in this thread, but is a good read with all the info needed.

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110474/article.html?popularArticle

 

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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm 
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EL__Fairmont wrote:
Don't know whether this link has been posted up in this thread, but is a good read with all the info needed. http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110474/article.html?popularArticle
Thanks for that EL_Mont_Man. It depends a lot on your engine and air supply configuration as to actual results. I am damn sure my car is going a lot better with the 65536.6 installed than without. Others have said the same, although actual test data is still a little odd. Some have noticed little difference in operating temps (a reduction of 5 degrees or so is debatable on so many levels...) while others have got 10-20 degrees Celsius constantly.

I think the output from the radiator has a lot to do with it. Also the actual temperature of the air at the beginning of the induction system of course!

Have sold a few more of these locally around Wellington NZ so am back to square one of waiting for more material and getting it cut again... Good news --- No one has yet had any problems with installing my design (at least, no one has reported anything amiss...)



I am seriously thinking of submitting this as a Fordmods TECH DOCO. Will possibly start making a HTML page including the CAD file that you can take to your local flash machinist and start cutting your own. The material is about half the cost of the product at $60NZ. If anyone would like to use their visa card and purchase the material through me and have a go at producing them cheaper then let me know. I'd be keen to get a few sent back to NZ if you guys cut them. Honestly - The cutting costs me $50 per unit as well, so I've actually lost money by the time I pay for two sets of couriers and ship them to Aussie.

Why do I do it?.. Probably because I think it's a good idea and I simply want to get it out and about. Would prefer it to be out and about with my name on it. Maybe it could operate like SHARWARE SOFTWARE. If you like the design, then feel free to send donations so that I can afford to start some of the other intake and heat reduction mods I have in my head.
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:27 pm 
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hey fiend
have you fitted one to your car yet??
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:50 pm 
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yes he has.. and detailed his measurements too.

I will be getting one of these when I get the SC engine into my EL.. I want to see what effect it has on boosted engines.

Will be starting on the EL again soon as today I finished the Sierra that the wife said I had to finish before working on the fords.
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:57 pm 
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maybe i missed it..
as temp measurements i see them..
what about any dyno figures of before and after?
or even a noticeable gain in on road performance???
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:53 pm 
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TROYMAN wrote:
maybe i missed it..what about any dyno figures of before and after? or even a noticeable gain in on road performance???
Have no access to dyno sorry. Did intend to do the whole dyno thing, but money and not having any ruined the plan. There is a gain in on road performance which is best described as more torque. Everyone who has one fitted has said this. No one who has fitted one has been on a dyno to my knowledge.

A dyno would tell you that the air path is 5mm longer and the injectors are 5mm further away from the combustion chamber. Unless you have your car running hard for half an hour and get it onto a dyno without stopping for a coke, ciggy or piss it ain't going to be useful either.

The whole thing about having this fitted is it's purpose is to prevent heat soak from engine to air intake. If you're just idling around town to your dyno shop and doing a couple of runs it's not going to show much difference really.

Was dead keen to thrash the s**t out of it and put it on a dyno without turning it off. If only there was a dyno owner who is the least bit interested in doing something like that knowing full well he isn't going to be selling me a $800 custom tune whilst I'm there....


To keep your induction cold there are a number of things to consider, as you're well aware. If you're race car driving a lot you could put a large still air box and have a ram air effect going if you have a 6" pipe going into a 60 litre air box you would notice vast improvements above 120km/h. A dyno room isn't going to show any difference in power with that modification either. (Unless you happen to have a dyno in a wind tunnel.)


The whole purpose of my thinking regarding this has been to keep the air at the point of injection to cylinder as cold as possible. Ambient readings of mid twenties and throttle butterfly temps of around 35 would show that I'm doing okay. The reduction of temperature soak into the BBM with all the modifications thus far has been good. One person fitting this exact product have found only 1-2% decrease in temperatures. I found this very disappointing and we are trying to work out why it is happening. The three people who have been supplying data have all reported better torque (include me, make it four). Reasons for this are debatable. I have my theories. Others fitting it have found a 5-10 degree decrease (which is quite a good percentage given original temperatures of around 50...)


If anyone has a standard air box (you know - that goddam snorkel thing still present) and has the ability to read temperatures, can you please check ambient, temperature of the wall of air box closest to the bbm, temperature at neck of air box (internal) and give me a reading of how hot the throttle butterfly is after you've been driving for an hour....



yawn.
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 Post subject: RESULTS ARE...
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:03 pm 
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The results of different installations are averaging out nicely. We hope the flaw with the poor dudes AU results was simply a test error as he is now providing results comparable to what everyone else is getting (and actually better than most peoples!)

He is now reporting decreasing in temperatures of up to twenty degrees Celsius in certain conditions and gains in power (seat of pants, not dyno sorry Troybro)

All in all, this experiment is a success to date. It would be really nice if engine bays all over Australasia would sprout the shroom...

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http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listin ... ber=120931
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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:30 pm 
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Fiend,

I don't know mate, engines get bloody hot on the dyno. There is only just enough flow from (most of) there fans to keep the engine at a reasonable temperature. Heat soak through the engine is an absolute killer on those things. I had a drop of 15rwkw just through heat soak, and that was only three runs. Im sure in one day you could easily do say three runs on a dyno standard, fit the FFFF, and give it three or more runs and get full results.

Maybe you could talk to Joe at Crescent Motorsport. He is a fantastic guy and has a dyno capable of reading intake temperatures. If he can prove results with your FFFF maybe he could include it with his stage 2, 3, and so on packages (for extra of course). I wont speak for him though im just throwing out ideas. It would also give you a base in Sydney for sales and fitment? Anyway just thinking out loud.

s**t ill even help him fit it and stuff around if you do me a deal on one Fiend lol :D

Anyway, give him a call.

Joe

Crescent Motorsport.

02 9600 6229

 

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 Post subject: Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:19 pm 
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Fiend you are a fukin classic!
Have been watchin this thread (and your build) for a while, love your ingenuity and the fact that you're willing to give anything a go.
:mrgreen:

 

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