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PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold... 

 

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 Post subject: PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold...
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Here we go.... Announcing...

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http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listin ... ber=120931


Pictured above is my creation to isolate the entire BBM from engine heat. It's cunningly called a FFFF (or, for those that know hexidecimal, it is known as a 256,256. Or, even simpler... A 65536.6... It purely has the .6 on the end to make sure it has three sixes in it's official designation).

Despite popular belief a daily driver I6's BBM gets hot hot hot. You try holding your hand on one after driving for an hour or two. You tell me if this heat is all coming from hot air in the engine bay. Go on...

[[[[EDIT]]]]
This message has been edited a few times to present the latest face of what is going on in the thread further down. Although you may be reading this message first, it has been changed in an attempt to keep new readers informed on updates in progress.

The latest update is simply that I have produced a few of these devices and have tested and played around with different installation procedures.

Since there has been a couple sold (yet to be installed) and a couple installed I should be getting closer to producing a document containing all the facts, figures and relevant test data.

Will get back to you on this...

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]


Right, the 65536.6 (Fiends Fabulous Fiery Fabrication) has been designed and has yet to go into production. Initial cost estimate was less than $100NZ - what is the exchange rate at the moment? I guarantee you that if I land them at my door for $100nz you'll get them delivered to you in Aussie for less than $100AU.

I've just spent the better part of a day finding the best suppliers and the knowledge to do this properly. The company concerned has done most of the Ford V8's and UTE's in the NZ Touring Car series. They just didn't have a pattern for the six cylinder, so I've done one. In glorious AUTOCAD super smooth, as perfect as I can design it, 3D.

The finished product will be 8mm fat and shouldn't require your current gasket. It will do a good job of keeping your whole BBM at ambient temperature - ie - This laminated gasket should stop temperatures as high as 200 degrees getting through to your BBM.

Up to you if you'd like one or not.

Have not received one to test fit yet, but shouldn't be too far wrong... All the ports are in the right place (and are 40.mm round and the bolt holes are within .5 of a mm from the position on the standard gasket.

(Don't look at the title graffix and wonder why the cylinder two is missing a little hunk of the bottom - that is just me getting tired and not paying attention to yukky old Photoshop after that nice long Cad session....)


Have a look through this for the background...
forums/post914863.html#914863



The only thing that is holding me back at this point is simply that the injectors are going to be 5mm further away from where they originally are... If you take out current 2.5mm gasket and replace with 8mm... You see what I mean? Can anyone put my mind at rest about this before I go and find heaps of money to make some of these things?!


Due to updated processes (read page three of this thread) there is a new design in the making....
Image

Last edited by fiend on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:24 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:21 pm 
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um okay sounds interesting,
and if this reduces intake temps then i want one!

But how dose this actually stop heat by spacing the intake manifold 8mm or so from the side if the head??

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:21 pm 
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the injectors won't be effected by the extra distance, so don't worry.


next point. when you know they will fit, I'LL TAKE ONE.

never heard of the other ones you're talking about. Who makes them? and how thick are they?

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:38 pm 
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Hi guys... Thanks for stopping by... It will definately reduce intake temps, there's a link at the bottom of this message so you can see claims made by super dooper engineering firm, and then simply multiply their claimed improvements by two (throughout rev range, not just bottom end as theirs would do - they're only cooling the top half remember...)

It's all a trick of the Phenolic laminate. It just does not transfer heat. A bit like lead blocks sound, or solid oak trees stop runaway skateboards.

It stops virtually all the heat from the engine directly reaching the manifold. The BBM is a large hunk of alloy that works very well as a heat sink for the engine!

Have been looking into this for a while, but am not a super scientist, engineer or mechanic so am simply adding numbers and seeing what they come out like.

The material here has properties that should keep your BBM at ambient engine bay temperature even tho the head has hit triple figures.

If you put a hole in your bonnet slightly in from standard X6* position (directly above gap between BBM and AIR BOX OUTLET) you'll get rid of over half your ambient temperature if moving 50km or more. This calculation is based purely on my own research and I have yet to see it in practice as have been too scared to start chopping my bonnet without a nice vent to put in first!


Trickford wrote:
who makes the other ones?


The other ones are 12mm. Am not doing 12mm unless you don't mind finding your own bolts to fit (!)

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0006252883
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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:15 pm 
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Yeah i always thought the bbm spacers where abit of a waste as it only spaces the top half.

Your one looks really good, it'll be good to see what price you come up with.

For my turbo car i think both would be good, your one to stop the heat penetration from the head, and the other to give me a little more volume in the bbm/plenume for the turbo.

Would you consider making both for us turbo guys and doing a bit of a package deal?

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:40 pm 
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Surely spacers for the BBM are a double edged sword.

On the one hand the extra length may increase torque, but loose top end power as your also increasing the length of the short runners. By how much I have no idea.

Also, by stopping the manifold from heating up your stopping some of that heatsoak from going to the injectors. Hotter fuel apparently vaporises better - which is why some people actually have metal gaskets made to increase the heatsoak.

I'd be interested to know how hot the manifold actually is when the car is being driven. Can only check it when the car is parked by which time it's been driven slow and sat there for a while enabling it to heat up.

How long does the air take to travel through the BBM? At WOT is it really there long enough to get that hot?

 

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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:30 am 
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twr7cx wrote:
Surely spacers for the BBM are a double edged sword.

On the one hand the extra length may increase torque, but loose top end power as your also increasing the length of the short runners. By how much I have no idea.

Also, by stopping the manifold from heating up your stopping some of that heatsoak from going to the injectors. Hotter fuel apparently vaporises better - which is why some people actually have metal gaskets made to increase the heatsoak.

I'd be interested to know how hot the manifold actually is when the car is being driven. Can only check it when the car is parked by which time it's been driven slow and sat there for a while enabling it to heat up.

How long does the air take to travel through the BBM? At WOT is it really there long enough to get that hot?


8mm will make bugger all difference, and you wont loose any top end. the -0.1 of a kw the 8mm will represent will be offset by the gain made by the intake temps not getting as high.

dont forget the fuel still has to travel down the intake port which will be hot, and the injectors should be soaking radiant heat off the head. Cant see it being a huge impact. clean injectors, especially the later spray patern should be atomising well enough for anyones street performance purposes.

air travels rapidly through the BBM when you are shoving it, its a little under 4 litres or air being sucked through a 2-3 inch pipe every revolution. dont ever put your hand near the bare throttle body and pull the throttle cable to see how much suction, I nearly lost a few fingers lol. As for how long at WOT... how often do you drive at WOT? probably 1% of the time, and that would be as a bit of a lead foot. Its the other 99% of the time, low rpm hill climbing, where there is load at 1400-2000 rpm that this would help keep the charge cool and dense.

The question is how much benefit does the cool air expanding a bit in a hot manifold increase air velocity and cylinder fill. probably much for muchness. getting more velocity of less dense air would be the same as a lower velocity of more dense air in this case.

I still recon the BBM is a bit of a marketing con, and is a bit restrictive for a performance engine if thats what you have. By creating a torturous path its making it less efficient, and the extra - 10 inches- or so intake length diff between short and long runners? come on... The whole pipe from tb to box is worth a +/- 10-15 kw, and +/- 8-12 nm, whats a few inches gunna do?

I think a better designed custom tuned length twin or triple throttle body setup is a heaps better option if you are going to get serious.

 

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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:25 am 
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Well i have a phenolic spacer on my v8.

Its a half inch thick one, the upper manifold will still get warm, but its definately cooler with the spacer. Dunno about the gains as i had it put in when i installed my blower.

Still its worth a look into.

 

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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:32 am 
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This might be an option for the supercharged EL motor... heat will be an issue for me..
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:56 am 
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FFFF = 65535, hex works in whole numbers and is signed or floating according to parameters set by the op code, just my 2 cents. This will work though :wink:

 

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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:12 am 
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I have data logging of my intake temp as part of my tuning setup. If these come about I am more than happy to do before/after comparisons of intake temps and produce REAL NUMBERS about how well they work - both in stop start and cruise driving.

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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:14 pm 
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Jaysen wrote:
FFFF = 65535, hex works in whole numbers and is signed or floating according to parameters set by the op code, just my 2 cents. This will work though :wink:


Quite correct, however 65535 equals 65536 number variations (counting zero as the first). :roll:

Two byte 8 bits.

What the hell...


Will be back on later with regards to the more serious (car related) issues. Would be real cool to have an accurate measurement of temps. Have been waiting all day for a few emails regarding verified material specifications and costings.
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:54 pm 
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Grimketel wrote:

I still recon the BBM is a bit of a marketing con, and is a bit restrictive for a performance engine if thats what you have. By creating a torturous path its making it less efficient, and the extra - 10 inches- or so intake length diff between short and long runners? come on... The whole pipe from tb to box is worth a +/- 10-15 kw, and +/- 8-12 nm, whats a few inches gunna do?

I think a better designed custom tuned length twin or triple throttle body setup is a heaps better option if you are going to get serious.



this is what the difference in runner length does for the power curve.

 

 

Attachments:
hp long vs short.jpg
hp long vs short.jpg [ 40.68 KiB | Viewed 3766 times ]

 

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Last edited by tickford_6 on Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:10 pm 
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that it may be, but my view is that the manifold as a whole is not a good design if you want high performance. Im sure, positive in fact that with the aid of a design program like you have you could produce a better all round intake manifold, one without moving parts, and changing air routes. You wont see a BBM on a ferrari.

looking forward to seeing real intake temp readings galapogos01, that will be a good test.

 

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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:30 pm 
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Grimketel wrote:
You wont see a BBM on a ferrari.

You sure about that :D

Quote:
Variable Intake: Butterfly valve in carbon fiber intake manifold closed at low rpm, open at high rpm


http://www.remarkablecars.com/main/ferr ... i-f50.html

Sound familiar?
Not just F50 got it either.
Alot of manufacturers use/used similar stuff.
Sure you may be able to get a slightly better power figure at one point in the RPM range going to a fixed length manifold, but a variable length will always give you more average power.

 

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