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UPDATED! idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol. 

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:31 pm 
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I'm trying to do this for as little money as possible because once the charger is in, I'll probably try to find liquid injection setup. Till then this costs me nothing and is a good little project to keep me thinking.

Plus.. I don't want to make the whole thing big...

still, will see how this comes out and take it from there.
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:33 pm 
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BenJ wrote:
Gas injection is the ultimate solution with no air intake restrictions.

Only $575 at your local eBay!

Cheers
BenJ



Were you not working on something similar recently BenJ?
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:54 pm 
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frankieh wrote:
I assume you mean these puppies..
http://www.aeb.it/products/timing-advance-processors
Wonder which one suits a TFI ignition....

Will it do as good a job as a Tickford LPG ECU ???
frankieh wrote:
this is the stromberg I dug up in my shed.. no idea what model it is
Model no is cast in the base section which you were holding up in the pics.

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:18 am 
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I'll look for the number tomorrow, as for the the gas ecu, no it would not be as good because I'd lose my lose my speed sensitive steering and XR / Ghia tune. When I want fast ill put it on petrol, the lpg is about efficiency more than anything.
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:28 pm 
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twase wrote:
Would it be better to move the mixer out of the intake path and add it into a secondary path and use a throttle body from an E series to block the primary path when on LPG. Otherwise move to a GRA carb for what would probably be a better overall result.


Because a GRA carby has no more air flow capability then a correctly sized mixer ring does. It just meters the gas differently.

To spend the money to change the entire under bonnet gear to GRA, you'd just go straight vapour injection.

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:12 pm 
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tickford_6 wrote:
twase wrote:
Would it be better to move the mixer out of the intake path and add it into a secondary path and use a throttle body from an E series to block the primary path when on LPG. Otherwise move to a GRA carb for what would probably be a better overall result.


Because a GRA carby has no more air flow capability then a correctly sized mixer ring does. It just meters the gas differently.

To spend the money to change the entire under bonnet gear to GRA, you'd just go straight vapour injection.



That's a good point... my idea for doing this was to improve the performance on Petrol, ie to have a gas install make as little difference to petrol performance as possible. GRA gives better LPG performance, but I've never read anything that says it has less effect on petrol operation.
(Having said that, I still have a saved search on ebay to tell me when GRA stuff comes up.)
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:43 pm 
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frankieh wrote:
I assume you mean these puppies..

http://www.aeb.it/products/timing-advance-processors

Wonder which one suits a TFI ignition....



I'd say it would be the JokerN but the AEB part numbers rarely translate into the part numbers that they get sold under here. Sprint gas would be the only way to find out what it's called here and which one you would need.

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:28 am 
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Well, I just won this thing:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160616227024&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Says 4, 6 or 8 ford with TFI so I'm guessing this is the one I need. glad they sell a kit and that for less than 40 bucks I get it shipped without having to work out a way to do it myself.

Be interesting to see how much difference it makes to the gas. According to the guy that did my EL XR head, it's had a fair bit taken off it already, and I have an AU head gasket.. so my compression is probably already a good bit higher than factory. who knows..

When it comes time to go supercharged, I'm planning to save up and get liquid injection so I can make use of the intake charge cooling of gas expanding in the intake manifold.. together with my water to air intercooler, I should be able to get to 10psi without dropping the compression or retarding timing.
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:24 pm 
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Very interesting.

I look forward to seeing how it goes together, and what results you get.

Cheers
BenJ

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:23 pm 
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frankieh wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
twase wrote:
Would it be better to move the mixer out of the intake path and add it into a secondary path and use a throttle body from an E series to block the primary path when on LPG. Otherwise move to a GRA carb for what would probably be a better overall result.


Because a GRA carby has no more air flow capability then a correctly sized mixer ring does. It just meters the gas differently.

To spend the money to change the entire under bonnet gear to GRA, you'd just go straight vapour injection.



That's a good point... my idea for doing this was to improve the performance on Petrol, ie to have a gas install make as little difference to petrol performance as possible. GRA gives better LPG performance, but I've never read anything that says it has less effect on petrol operation.
(Having said that, I still have a saved search on ebay to tell me when GRA stuff comes up.)

If you are pushing air through the intake mechanically (i.e supercharger) then losses through any restriction are of less importance and can be made up largely with more boost. Might pay to wait on the mod we have all been waiting on for what seems like years (oh wait it has been) and see where you need to go from there.

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:30 pm 
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tickford_6 wrote:
twase wrote:
Would it be better to move the mixer out of the intake path and add it into a secondary path and use a throttle body from an E series to block the primary path when on LPG. Otherwise move to a GRA carb for what would probably be a better overall result.


Because a GRA carby has no more air flow capability then a correctly sized mixer ring does. It just meters the gas differently.

To spend the money to change the entire under bonnet gear to GRA, you'd just go straight vapour injection.

Not sure on that, GRA carbs can be sized up to 600CFM, more than enough for a NA 4L even some turbo setup don't even run that sizing. If you want larger then twin GRA's are often seen on V8's.

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:22 pm 
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twase wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
twase wrote:
Would it be better to move the mixer out of the intake path and add it into a secondary path and use a throttle body from an E series to block the primary path when on LPG. Otherwise move to a GRA carb for what would probably be a better overall result.


Because a GRA carby has no more air flow capability then a correctly sized mixer ring does. It just meters the gas differently.

To spend the money to change the entire under bonnet gear to GRA, you'd just go straight vapour injection.

Not sure on that, GRA carbs can be sized up to 600CFM, more than enough for a NA 4L even some turbo setup don't even run that sizing. If you want larger then twin GRA's are often seen on V8's.


Good luck getting a 600cfm GRA carby working PROPERLY on a 4L.
Just like every other mixer based LPG system they work on pressure drop across a venturi. You can't just make the venturi bigger to gain flow. Doing so lowers the pressure drop to the point that you can't meter the LPG at low engine speeds.

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:01 pm 
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Toyota 2jz motors had a throttlebody with a second electricly activated plate, get two of these fit them both to a BBM with a common throttle plate shaft bung a mixer ring in one and set up a system to open that one on gas and the other on petrol and tee your intake pipe to go to both of them

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:59 pm 
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JOSE wrote:
Toyota 2jz motors had a throttlebody with a second electricly activated plate, get two of these fit them both to a BBM with a common throttle plate shaft bung a mixer ring in one and set up a system to open that one on gas and the other on petrol and tee your intake pipe to go to both of them



There is no need to block off the mixer runner when on petrol. it still has 50+ percent of the flow of the normal runner. All you need to do is provide a path for the other 50% and you should have flow as good (on petrol) as if you had never converted to gas.

Your method would no doubt work, but it's overkill really as we only need to bring the flow up to the rest of the system and my butterfly arrangement should do and still be small enough to look almost factory. (at least once I've put a small black cover over it it should.)
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:06 pm 
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twase wrote:
If you are pushing air through the intake mechanically (i.e supercharger) then losses through any restriction are of less importance and can be made up largely with more boost. Might pay to wait on the mod we have all been waiting on for what seems like years (oh wait it has been) and see where you need to go from there.



Fair call.. but in my defence, in the time since I've planned to supercharge my e series, (which was an EA back then) I've built an entirely new car... built my wife an EF wagon on LPG from an unregistered wreck, rebuilt a diesel Hilux before the EF, fixed up and sold her Sierra had 3 kids, moved house and a bunch of other stuff. :-) been a few very busy years for me.

Boost with an M90 isn't a bottomless pit.... I cant waste it on intake restrictions. so my plan is to run premium only at first and keep the boost under 7psi.. then when I've saved the $$$ I'll swap to liquid gas injection only.. and then getting the snout machined and adding a 8-10 psi pulley. If I do i that way, I won't have to wait for the gas system to get charged.

If all this playing I'm doing now works, I'll probably sell it off when I can't use it myself anymore or move it all to the wife's EF. (not that I want her to go any faster)
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