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UPDATED! idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol. 

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:44 pm 
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galapogos01 wrote:
Pretty sure 6DJC is a 6 cyl bin with SSPS.
Along with 6DJA/6DJB they will be - should be EL ghia 6 cyl with SSPS and XR6 auto spark map.
galapogos01 wrote:
If you use a base bin that has SSPS in it. You can then use the switch to select one of two tunes based on this bin, one with LPG spark maps (could even use the factory tickford ones if you wanted).
galapogos01 wrote:
If you use a non-SSPS bin (XR6 Manual for example) you lose SSPS.

I'm in a similar boat - using EL ghia running gear (SSPS/6DJB ECU/XR6 cam/300kpa fuel reg), but running a manual and SVI LPG injection. Would be nice to run spark maps optimised for that.

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:14 pm 
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If you're running a Manual trans, I can alter the dashpot and idle speeds so it behaves more like a manual, even though you're using an auto bin. I can possibly disable LHM in the auto bin (need to confirm I can do this for EL) so you can lose the resistors on the trans temp line. This isn't such a big deal anyway.

If you run LPG most of the time you can get away with a chip with the Ghia base bin and LPG spark maps. Or, if you want to have a petrol spark map too, you can do so with a switch (and if you're that way inclined, a relay off the LPG system so it switches automatically).

I have had customers report gains of 50-100km/tank from LPG optimised spark maps, so it's definitely worth looking at!

Anyway, i'll butt out of this thread. PM me if you want more info, or reply in the T.I. thread in the ECU section.

Cheers,
Jason
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:41 am 
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howd you go you finish it yet?

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:50 pm 
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How did you go with this? I am trying to do the same thing but am only at concept level so far. I have thought about using an electronic throttle body as extra air input, but I think it needs a control of some sort. I don't believe you can put a straight supply onto it to make it open, it needs to be a manipulated duty cycle (?). I have done a post in regards to this with no luck as of yet and then saw your post while I was checking it out for response's. Have you got it working yet? I may still use a throttle body as I am running a 400ci and a little intake like that is probably not big enough. I do have an advantage in that I have a large electric solenoid/actuator off a Cat C15 that I can use to move the butterfly. It was given to me by a workshop that I deal with that changed an engine over to U/G specs but if it ever craps out it will cost me hundreds so I an a bit gesitant.
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:05 pm 
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I'm still welding up the brackets.. the pipes are cut and shut to what I think are the correct angles, now I am welding flanges onto them to bolt to the butterfly body.

I'm not sure I understand why open on fuel and shut on gas wouldn't be sufficient as we are not affecting any of the engines sensors or mixtures, we are just bypassing the mixer ring when running on petrol to provide air flow close or equal to a factory intake pipe. even if you went with a bigger than standard throttle body for the bypass, you still won't be flowing more than the real TB can as it's likely there will be a bottleneck that is worse elsewhere in the system and even if there isn't the limit would then be the flow of the actual TB.


On a side note, I also found an alternative for my wifes EF that will flow even more air than the carb butterfly I'm using on mine. My wifes old Suzuki Sierra airbox has a pretty big vacuum activated butterfly that was used to pull warm air off the exhaust manifold for cold running. that unit is fully self contained with it's own vacuum activator designed to specifically open and close it fully, so I'll I'll have do to install that one, is to cut it off the airbox and plumb it around the mixer on her car and hook it to a bbm swtich.
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:15 pm 
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I don't have a throttle body. I am old school with a holley carb and a 425 mixer on adapter. All I want is open or closed to acheive exactly what you are doing now. I did think of a vacuum arrangement but started going down the electric path as I was given some bits as mentioned. I haven't outlayed any cash yet so nothing lost. Thought an electonic jobbie would be elegant and clever if it was simple. Maybe not
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:02 pm 
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ahh, I see..

if it's a 4byl carb, then almost certainly will need more flow than my stromberg butterfly will flow.


As for electronic verses vacuum.. my choosing the later was mostly because I wanted it to be as simple and engine bay proof as possible. and I wanted the valve to default to closed so if anything stopped working, the only thing that would happen is the spring would shut the butterfly and not leave my engine running on LPG at a massively lean rate and killing itself.

I've even been thinking of putting a mechanical linkage switch on the butterfly and an LED on my dash as a physical indicator of the butterfly's status. Just for comforts sake. :-)
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:08 pm 
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make sure you post up some pics of the progress.would like to see how it looks.

 

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EL xr6,standard a** au motor,hi-tech headers, 2 1/2inch red back,,Tikky kitted and wingless,Black GT-P's,on ultra lows and still too high

My Build: the-garage-f53/daniels-el-xr6-build-t100586.html

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:53 am 
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yes simple. That was why I thought the electric throttle body would be the go. Looks factory and only two wires, but unless someone else can confirm whether or not I can make it work, unless I find one super cheap to play with I might go down your line. I would probably still use a throttle body albeit a cable operated one, but do what you are doing and find either an electric actuator (I have one it's just a bit big etc) or source a vac one and use an electric contro/solenoidl off the LPG switch for activation.
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:13 am 
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look what I found, a little expensive (maybe not by the time some-ones shags around making stuff)
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format ... 6264128956
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:04 am 
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LOL.. I was looking for one of them back when I had the idea.. couldn't find them anywhere... I remembered my mate had one on his old valiant back at Uni in the early 90's. bit pricey though.
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:39 am 
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I emailed an outfit yesterday: http://www.badlanzhpe.com/
I had a response within 24 hours as follows- "Craig, what is the speed of the opening and closing for this intake side, as my valves open and close in about 3-4 seconds. I have had many inquiries about this, but I do not have a gearmotor using the speed you need. I can do it though, but will need to know exactly the speed you are requesting? Let me know. Sorry for my slow response."

The guys name is Charle Gerst and from what I found on the net it's not bad suff and his support is very good. His fast response is pretty good as well. Approx $140us for a 3" kit plus $40 freight.
There is another outfit called DMH that has a 4 year warranty and that is a similiar price. Doesn't look quite as good as the Badlanz item. I will do some more digging and I maght save up. By the time I f@rt a*** around buying a manual throttle and actuators etc this may be worth the little extra.
What do you reckon?
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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:03 pm 
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When I was looking into doing this, I was just going to use an EB log throttle body with a door lock actuator to open and close the butterfly.

The main issue is that it closes completely and there is no leak as this will greatly effect idle performance on LPG.

Cheers
BenJ

 

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 Post subject: Re: idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:34 pm 
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yeah, the door motor was my first thought too.. but I didn't like it because it wasn't designed for an engine bay.. in order to have it close by default via spring, it'd have to be pulling the butterfly open continuously when on petrol.. motor would not cut off. Plus I don't trust a door motor for something that important.
Vacuum is a continuous pull which I needed to keep the butterfly open against the spring, so I went with that. Can't wait to finish it and see if it makes a noticeable diff.
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 Post subject: Re: UPDATED! idea for more flow around mixer when on Petrol.
Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:04 pm 
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OK.... sorry it is taking so long, I have 3 little kids, 3 cars and an old house, all of which seems to require my constant attention and work... so I have to squeeze a bit in here and their where I can...

Anyway have some photos and a video.

Here you can see the basic layout of the adaptors I made for the ends of the carby base. I basically welded on double washes to use as fixing points.

Image


Here is the same thing which the adaptors I bought at bunnings fitted:
Image


And here it is in the approximate position it will be on the intake.
The grey sleeves will be inside the intake and trimmed to match angles and not reduce flow.
Image

Last of all, here is a video of the jury rigged vacuum linkage in place.
(don't know if you can embed youtube vids here, so just gonna link to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0bJht92_pw
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