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J3 & supercharging 

 

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:39 am 
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http://www.boostedfalcon.net/viewtopic. ... start=1000
AU + boost + J3

Speak to Jason at TI Performance, problem solved.

 

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:31 am 
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sly wrote:
Shav, you need to confirm that TI Performance have a comprehensive def for your car's bin. Do you know the box code for your ECU? Or the code for the strategy?

If you got an Xcal2 in your Raptor kit, you can read the strategy under the "Vehicle Info" menu. I assume the Xcal3 has a similar option, but the original Flash Tuner box doesn't. If you can read the strategy, you can check with TI if they have a def for your car. When I read the strategy for my car (bearing in mind it's a Series 1 with Smartshield) the code it shows is "N9XL1N6". Yours will be somewhat different.

Otherwise, you can try to get the boxcode off your ECU using a mirror to see the sticker on the J3 cover plug. I suspect it might be 12BD or similar. Or browse through this list -->http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbportal/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=559 and see which one describes your car. To help decode these, ignore the R which is the 1st letter of the part number, it just indicates a remanufactured or reconditioned part. Any codes with "1R23" as the next 4 characters apply to AU2.

Once you get a box code or part number, you can compare it with TI's ECU database, but you probably still need to ask them what the corresponding strategy is, and if they have a suitable def.

Most E-series seem to be well mapped by now but the AU's aren't as well represented on TI's website as yet.

I understand that the main issue you have is a flat spot around 2000rpm? Mine has a big off-idle flat spot that doesn't clear until 2200-2400rpm. I've just bought a Sniper package to have a go at tuning out the flat spot and then adapting an XR6T TMAP sensor to give a fully boost-mapped tune. What I have to do first though is work out whether my flat spot is rich or lean, using a wideband O2 sensor and datalogger to collect some data correlating AFR's against RPM and throttle position and/or MAP voltage. You may need to do similar, or see if you can get a dyno analysis done.

Have to go now, this might give you a few more questions to ask.


thanks sly. appreciate your comments.

My ecu is a 12BD iirc, i had it confirmed recently. I also talked with a tuner about running a sniper as well. He was certain the sniper would be more superior to a J3 and that the J3 still had areas which could not be ironed out when it came to boost. I asked him about the 2 bar map sensor and he was adamant that J3 would fail. I walked away with the intention of looking into it further before writing anything off and forking out more cash.

I still have the xcal1. This thing is obsolete and basically just holds the tunes I have on it now. Pretty much a paper weight.

I will paste what the tuner pretty much thought of J3 at the time:

Hi Shav, I have had a look at the Tuner pro software and files for your vehicle (From TI Performance) and there is not enough information or parameters listed to perform a correct tune with the modifications to our vehicle.
Also I believe that some of the data in the software is incorrect.
The Tuning address files for these are reverse engineered by hobby tuners in their spare time and as such many of them are not very accurate.
We would spend many many hours of time trying to work out and correct the files to get them to work correctly.(very costly)

I still strongly believe that Sniper or SCT are the best options as these professional company’s spend thousands of dollars and may hours researching and creating the correct Tuning definition files.(something that you or I cannot afford to do).

As I have stated before J3 does not support many tuning parameters for this PCM were as Sniper and SCT are far more comprehensive.

If you really want to try with J3 I will look at it for you but this may well end up very expensive with not very good results.

Also the J3 card is an add on that hangs out of the back of the ECU and would not be looked on favourably by the Engineers or Road Transport Department as in their opinion it could fail or be tampered with upsetting the tune calibration and rendering the vehicle non compliant after the engineering inspection.

I would be interested in talking to the Tuner of the AU Ute that you mentioned as he may have worked out more and accurate tuning parameters and he may be willing to share the information.


The flat spotting I have you pretty much nailed on the head. Its like it learns some bad habits and just doesn't want to move into it sees more revs from the engine first. I thought a stall converter might help alleviate this. I'll be getting a 2400rpm stall regardless to help with better take offs at least. I'm not 100% sure if it will help the flat spot or not.

I'd like your thoughts on if running a full house J3 and 2 bar map sensor along with the right tuner and dyno is worthwhile and doable or if I should just forget about it and go a sniper or back to SCT (which I would prefer not).

 

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:50 am 
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I wouldn't go back to SCT for a start. If you go back to Raptor's AU thread in the sponsor forums, you'll see a comment by Tim that his tuner couldn't change the injector size. I can confirm that the SCT tune still has the "injector slope" set to stock sizing. They've basically fudged the Volumetric Efficiency table to get fuelling to work. Pretty much like emulating a rising rate reg in software. And a rising rate reg is like using a pair of pliers to tighten a bolt - it works just often enough that some people swear by it, but it ain't pretty.

I also own an SCT Pro Racer Package for my AU, and the list of parameters in its def is woeful. No MAP transfer table, no fuel injector sizing etc. It supposedly uses the same def tuners get in their Advantage III kit, so it is very limited.

To do what you want to do, a tuning solution needs to be able to alter as a minimum, MAP transfer table, scaling of all MAP-related tables & functions, spark tables, volumetric efficiency table, injector slope and intake air temperature corrections. The good thing about TI's solution is that you can, at minimal cost, download the software and the related bin and def (if available for your car) and check out the capabilities for yourself. I believe the Sniper software can do what I need, but at a much greater cost. And I haven't had it long enough to have the time to prove it definitively. I know there are some things not yet mapped for my ECU, such as BBM butterfly control, but the essentials seem to be there, along with some niceties such as shift points and firmness.

 

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:11 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Mine had a flat spot at around 2000 rpm too.

Both with the flash tuner when it was supercharged and the J3 chip when it was turbocharged. It was running lean and I couldnt tune it out. It was only at part throttle and mainly noticeable on the freeway at 100km/hr.

I got over home tuning and got a wolf V500 fitted. The stock ECU sits in the shed now. :)
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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:16 am 
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sly wrote:
The good thing about TI's solution is that you can, at minimal cost, download the software and the related bin and def (if available for your car) and check out the capabilities for yourself.

One small correction to make here - it's not a minimal cost, it's FREE!

Shav, I have seen that same response from your Tuner before and my comment was that this tuner has invested heavily in other tuning solutions, and has little to no incentive to re-learn another tuning product for just the one customer. Their response is nonsensical and if they took the time to look at what was available they would find that the data IS correct!

Based on the questions you're asking and the fact that you haven't opened the box and taken a look yourself, I honestly don't think the best option for you is going to involve DIY tuning, no matter what the product. This isn't a bad thing, but you need to recognise this and move on!

Also, if your tuner doesn't want to tune with a specific product there's no point forcing them to do it, as you wont get the result you want. You should always go by what your tuner says - unless you don't like their opinion, in which case you should find a new tuner :)

Dan's turbo issues were slightly different but I think you will find you can get a respectable tune either with a 2bar sensor or with a "MAP Cheater" as CAPA/Raptor used to include in their kits. Our AU defs have the MAP/ACT/CHT transfers, injector slope, etc. The only one listed on the thread that we don't have is the AIT spark correction. But you don't need me to tell you this, you can check all of this out yourself...

Read my thread on boosted for some real world results in my EF - I know it's not an AU but the main difference is your choice in MAP sensor.

Just my 2c...
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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:37 am 
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Thanks Jason for your advice. I have not forgotten what you have said and can understand the reasoning behind why this particular tuner is reluctant to try it.

I still want to use J3 but am in no sense tech savvy enough to handle something of this scale. I think I am gonna go back to Bruce Heinrich and get him to sort it for me as he is starting to use the J3 software more and more now due to demand. Also he basically tunes Fords only nowadays so he is up to date with the latest of whats going on.

Again mate, I still value your advice on this matter, I am just asking for others experience on this subject too so I am fully aware of any and as much information when I take the plunge and get into it. Only a talk with Bruce is the best option to see what he thinks. He is also an avid SCT stockist and user so there is a chance he may steer me in that direction much to my distaste.

Sly - Thanks for that information mate. Your advice is invaluable too. I think since asking Jason a few months back there has been even more development of the J3 and provision for what can be done for my car.

Dan - A wolf 3D sounds great but I'd rather keep the stock ECU personally and work with it.

Raptor already supplied me with a map cheater, would I need the additional 2 bar map sensor on top to fine tune things a bit better in conjunction with the J3?

 

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:43 pm 
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Shav, if you go with a 2 bar MAP sensor you can snip off the MAP cheater as the MAP voltage won't approach its limit (nominally 5v). In fact if you use an XR6T TMAP, the voltage signal only runs to 3.7v at 2 bar pressure (approx 14.5psi boost). It appears that the XR6T item may be a 2.5 or 2.75 bar sensor.

I had been reluctant to go with the J3 solution due to problems I had previously with a cam & chip combo - the car used to go totally autistic & refuse to start every few weeks, requiring a tow to a workshop and reflash of the ECU with a $$$cantool. I think I may have finally found why this was happening (after only 6 years...). Pix & new thread shortly. If my suspicions prove out, I may be able to have a bit of an each way bet.

EDIT: Link to new thread in ECU forum --> ecu-fuel-system-eec-f21/has-this-pcm-ben-prepped-properly-for-a-j3-chip-t100459.html

 

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To be updated... soon!

Last edited by sly on Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:57 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Thanks Sly.

I have a choice of Wade AU1645 cam or a Surecam with about a 535 lift I can fit. Tossing up which to fit. Im hoping the J3 can tune that as well as sort out my fine tuning issues.

With your issues were you having problems similar to me or is it a separate issue?

 

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:32 pm 
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I had a frustrating combination of way too rich on boost (measured at about 20% rich on a couple of dynos) with a flat spot at full throttle around 2000rpm (which I thought was rich). I got rid of the too-rich problem by fitting approx 20% smaller injectors. They were sold to me (on Ebay) as XR6T injectors. Turns out they are BA V8 injectors (fitted to both 3V and 4V V8's) that have the same nominal spec. Just a different part number and black instead of dark blue.

This immediately made my flat spot much worse, stretching from approx 1000-2400 rpm and under light as well as heavy throttle, which I suppose is a bit of a clue that it was a lean flat spot, not rich.

So this arvo I've been hooking (or hacking?) into my VE table with Sniper, after doing a bit of Googling. Seems I was a bit harsh on the boys who did the original tune for Raptor, ref "fudging" the VE table. Seems this is the accepted practice when tuning for boost with Speed Density, as the cells in the VE table can't equal or exceed 100%. So maximum VE is 99.9% or 99% depending on your software, and you compensate for VE in excess of 100% (as happens with boost) by reducing the injector size.

So knowing that I had a lean low end, I've been playing with VE's under 2300rpm. I still haven't found my LM-2 and WBO2 yet - they're in the shed somewhere. But knowing it was running like crap due to leanness, I've just been progressively richening and reflashing until it runs smoothly. I'll have to do the full logging routine to get it perfect, but already it's a s**t better than it was.

Bottom line, I've just spent the last few minutes sitting in the car, left foot on the brake, right foot on the gas, revs at 1800-1900, spinning the rear wheels and filling the yard with tyre smoke, laughing my silly head off. Just as well the Mrs and kids are out...

My car hasn't been able to do that for ages.

So it should be entirely possible for you to get your flat spot fixed, whether you go J3 or Sniper. Going SCT again would be a bit harder. The SCT hardware doesn't allow reading of the tune in the PCM apparently, and only the original tuner can tweak it, unless he's willing to give (or sell) you his tune file.

The other 2, however, let you read the tune that's in the PCM, which at least gives you (or your tuner) a starting point.

All I have to do now is see how it goes on the road. Hopefully it doesn't all turn to shight once a bit of adaptive learning happens.

 

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To be updated... soon!

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Good stuff Sly. There are other ways to get more fuel in with the SD based EECs but that is the way most do it.

You can suck out an SCT (or sniper) tune with a T.I. Performance J3 Programmer & EEC Reader BTW :)
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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:55 pm 
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yeah I think I said yhat inn a roundabout way. Had a bol o wine with dinner 2 celebrtate, not tooo clear atm wiill check in agn innthe morning. don ask me any qeztzions now ok????

 

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AU1.5 Wagon, Raptor ProStreet kit, Pacemaker 4499's with 3" collector, 3" metal cat, 3" pipe, Pex BSO660 & BSO439, BA brakes, Sprintgas mixer LPG system, Airod variable-venturi mixer... stealth FTW Sniper tuned!

To be updated... soon!

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:07 am 
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haha great post Sly, thanks again for your input on the flat spot. I think Im settled with using the J3. The hardest part is getting Bruce to be willing enough to tune it.

Any comments on cam choice as stated above?

 

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:31 pm 
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Cams aren't really my area of expertise. I had a cam recommendation from Wade once, not sure where it is now, but I was after a cam for SC + LPG, as I intend to run primarily on gas.

The time & effort I'm putting into tuning the petrol side is basically an investment in research for a future project, probably a turbo'd AU3 with LPG vapour injection. The LPG fuelling relies on the petrol programming being spot-on.

But back to cams, I'd go with something that offered lift rather than duration or overlap. Just my $0.02.

BTW the proof is in the driving - much nicer today. Maybe a small tweak to fuelling around 1500-2000 rpm to clear a slight doughiness. Any further improvement would need logging to measure.

 

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AU1.5 Wagon, Raptor ProStreet kit, Pacemaker 4499's with 3" collector, 3" metal cat, 3" pipe, Pex BSO660 & BSO439, BA brakes, Sprintgas mixer LPG system, Airod variable-venturi mixer... stealth FTW Sniper tuned!

To be updated... soon!

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 Post subject: Re: J3 & supercharging
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:33 am 
Getting Side Ways
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sly wrote:
Cams aren't really my area of expertise. I had a cam recommendation from Wade once, not sure where it is now, but I was after a cam for SC + LPG, as I intend to run primarily on gas.

The time & effort I'm putting into tuning the petrol side is basically an investment in research for a future project, probably a turbo'd AU3 with LPG vapour injection. The LPG fuelling relies on the petrol programming being spot-on.

But back to cams, I'd go with something that offered lift rather than duration or overlap. Just my $0.02.

BTW the proof is in the driving - much nicer today. Maybe a small tweak to fuelling around 1500-2000 rpm to clear a slight doughiness. Any further improvement would need logging to measure.


I kind of agree with that. Im leaning towards the Surecam. Has 535 lift. The 112 LSA seems a bit tight but it should still work ok and sound lopey at the same time. My optimum operating range for power is between 2500-5500. No more. I dont like pushing it as hard as that. Will get heavier duty valve springs too. Got a 2400rpm stall lined up to suit as well.

Sounds like you are tuning your car very nicely mate. Look forward to seeing this new turbo LPG AU3 as well. :mrgreen:

 

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